I'd like to open with a flat, possibly distancing statement, just so it's obvious where my allegiances lie.
Misogyny in gaming culture exists. It is divisive, and it is problematic.
While brainstorming ideas for an annual game jam, it was proposed that everyone be given the same asset pack with which to produce their games. I offered an adjustment: all participants should create a piece for all the other participants to include. It was pointed out that 'everyone would just draw penises'. This turned into a discussion on the intrinsic humor of penises, a first-hand recalling of some negative experiences in an office settings, some recent events, and eventually a debate on gamer culture.
The recent events section revolves around attention focused on Bioware's Mass Effect. For those who missed the noise, in the Mass Effect series, a player is given the option of tailoring the protagonist, Colonel Shepherd. Among the options to change are skin tone, hair, and gender. The conflict arose when Bioware decided to include only the male version of Shepherd in their advertising and promotional material. I'm personally inclined to believe that a person is oblivious before stupid and stupid before malicious. It's equally possible that Bioware simply wanted to maintain a uniform advertising experience. Showing multiple different versions of the same character can conceivably be confounding to the target audience. Printing multiple versions of advertising is expensive. In my mind, Bioware hadn't done anything intrinsically malicious: they'd chosen a path which would maximize financial gain over social equality. I don't like it when an entity maximizes profit over acting on social issues, but it is in the nature of business to do so. As a result, I didn't find fault with development or marketing.
Until, at least, someone provided some data. It seems that the female protagonist was selected by the vast majority of people playing through. The reasons behind this are irrelevant, and coupled with the (admittedly subjective) catching point of a female protagonist being a more distinct entity than Yet Another Manly Man Man. Maybe they simply wanted to continue on the same course of advertising? Well, if that were the case they'd have to establish that keeping a male figure was more financially viable than the transition to a female lead. Maybe they were lazy and still stuck in the idea that manly dudes sell. If the latter is true, it's plain and simple: they fucked up. I don't want to end it on that note, however, since I think it misses a larger point: I give props to Bioware for introducing not just a strong female player, but a slew of other XX-Chromosomed crew members who are equally strong and capable.
The female Shepherd's absence triggered a nontrivial amount of blowback. I think Bioware's response was as understandable as it was unfulfilling. The trailer for the game was swapped on their website. That's it. If I were speaking to Bioware as a flesh-and-blood person, I imagine I'd say this:
"I know you're tired. You've just released a game after all these years and you want to rest. I know you don't think that this is a big deal. I know you've spent a lot of time and effort doing what you can only to have people pick it apart for the very things you tried hardest to get right, but I need to you to do more. These people, the ones who are angry about how you've acted, are coming from a place which is uncomfortable for a lot of us to acknowledge. They've been there. They're hurting because they've been exposed first-hand to a systemic problem which is making the world worse for all of us. Those attacks -- those accusations of sexism aren't intended as personal accusations about the quality of your character, even if it's feels that way. When someone says, 'That's sexist,' it's not meant to be, 'You're sexist.' Just because you didn't mean for it to be hurtful doesn't mean it isn't, so don't say it's harmless."
I'll say it again. Bioware fucked up with their marketing and their response, but good on them for making female leads in the first place. Realistically, this should be the end of the post, but the community response was one which drives some continuation. I'm not talking about the people who complained about the sexism in the first place. I'm talking about the community's response to the response. I'm talking about the social defects of the silent spiral and vocal minority.
People are good at recognizing patterns. It's part of what makes us humans. Being deliberately ignorant of a pattern, or overapplying a pattern without attention to details is what changes generalization into stereotypes. There's a pattern that I've been shrugging off as 'not real' or overblown for a while. Maybe it was willful ignorance. Maybe it wasn't. At this point, I don't have the metacognition to really analyze it, but the pattern does exist: there is a collective societal discrimination against woman. I'm a largely cisgendered caucasian male, so I've not been on the receiving end of this stereotype. I have seen it, however, and it's upsetting to me when I'm playing online to have to deal with socially maladjusted people awkwardly and surreptitiously hit-on my friends or worse, using the same dated, "Make me a sandwich," "In the kitchen," "Can't drive," drivel.
I don't know why gaming of all places should become the vestige for this class of negativity and discrimination, but it has and it needs to stop. Saying, "toughen up," mutes the problem and does nothing to change the fact that it's producing an environment which is hostile to 50% of the available labor market. The problem is only going to get worse. So what do we do? That's the harder question, I think. In the local, it's simply the case that the majority of sensible gamers need to speak out against inappropriate behavior when they witness it. Just yelling at someone, however, is not an effective way to deter behavior. One needs to introduce shame without hostility. Hostility leads to backlash and a strengthening of beliefs. Shame leads to inner-resentment and changes to behavior. Explain without accusing that this behavior is not acceptable, and that it should be changed. Use personal descriptors like, "I know you're not talking to me, but it's making _me_ uncomfortable to hear you hit on someone else like this. Please stop? It's creeping me out." In the global, understand and differentiate between, "It's deliberate," and, "It's harmful." The two are uncorrelated. When someone brings to light that something is wrong, remember that it's not necessarily a personal attack, and remember that just because you meant it one way doesn't mean that it comes across in the way intended. Think about the merits and legitimacy of a criticism, even if it seems silly, and work with people to figure out an optimal solution.
The conversation in question has more insight and debate. My thanks to those who participated and highlighted aspects of the matter I hadn't considered. I learned a lot.
15:06 < jo> I ask only because I wanted to comment on the SAGDC2014 ideas.
15:07 < jo> "Everyone has to use the same assets for different games." + "Only if Everdraed makes the images and JossiRossi does the voices/sound effects."
15:07 < jo> It will be the most upsetting SAGD ever.
15:07 < jo> :s/upsetting/amazing
15:11 < crnobog> tarot is a cool theme for a game
15:11 < stickfigs> hah that was my idea
15:11 < jo> I'm not big on vegetables. :V
15:11 < stickfigs> the "Everyone has to use the same assets for different games." part not the latter
15:12 < jo> I like it.
15:12 < stickfigs> "Or, alternatively, all participants have to make one resources/asset which all the others need to incorporate."
15:12 < foobarbez> as someone who makes assets rather than gameplay I am not a fan :I
15:12 < stickfigs> Penis jam
15:12 < jo> That's what I meant.
15:12 < jo> foob: That's why it's amazing.
15:13 < jo> Bust out mspaint, make a 16x16 tile. It's in a game.
15:13 < stickfigs> 100 assets all penis models, penis textures, penis sounds, penis music
15:13 < stickfigs> penis animations
15:14 < jo> penis(float length, float girth, boolean grower, Color color)
15:14 < crnobog> didn't terry cavanagh already make that game
15:14 < jo> PenisFactory
15:14 < stickfigs> lol
15:14 < foobarbez> why are so many game devs obsessed with penises
15:14 < stickfigs> float ballRadius
15:14 < foobarbez> idgi
15:14 < jo> Penises are hilarious.
15:14 < jo> At least, people are always laughing at mine.
15:15 < stickfigs> because that is the first thing that comes to mind
15:15 < jo> You can't spell 'digital' without the D.
15:15 < foobarbez> I dunno, I like penises plenty but I don't feel the need to insert them into everything
15:16 < foobarbez> maybe it's a dude thing
15:16 < stickfigs> ehehehehhe
15:16 < stickfigs> you just made a penis joke
15:16 < stickfigs> its inevitable
15:16 < foobarbez> ._.
15:16 < jo> "Girls grow into women. Boys grow into bigger boys."
15:16 < jo> Not that it excuses behavior, simply the case that it's the least common denominator among humors.
15:17 < jo> Right up there with butt jokes and fart jokes.
15:17 < jo> "Right up there." :V
15:17 < stickfigs> i think finding a penises funny is universal
15:17 < stickfigs> crosses gender boundaries
15:18 < jo> A penis has the same intrinsic hilarity of a hammer, I think, or the majestic brick.
15:18 < jo> It's simply the case that some entities are imbued with more intrinsic humor value than others.
15:18 < foobarbez> I think I just had enough of penis jokes/drawings of penises on everything at work
15:18 < foobarbez> #1reasonwhy I quit :v
15:19 < jo> :V
15:19 < stickfigs> http://youtu.be/74vfDkRMJ88
15:19 <&turdbot> stickfigs: Attack of the Flying Dildo - length 1m 56s - rated 4.93/5.0 (441) - 129,172 views - stownplayer on 2008.05.23
15:20 < sighnoceros> the intrinsic humor value (IHV) directly corresponds to the possibility to which an object seems it could go into or come out of a butt
15:20 <@Mido> but enough about my weekend
15:23 < stickfigs> to bring the discussion back around, i would probably prefer not to have penises in a game i spend more than 5 minutes working on
15:24 < stickfigs> i'd like something that i could put in a portfolio lol
15:24 < jo> I agree. I realistically don't think everyone will make penises.
15:24 < sighnoceros> is there a game jam thread or is that stuff that was mentioned in here
15:24 < stickfigs> you could declare a theme that the assets have to adhere to
15:25 < jo> sighnoceros: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2ZS6bInY51V-pCgWyGYDQNDTLiKW8Qx7DSLViwCE9g
15:25 < jo> Oh.
15:25 < sighnoceros> oh it's in the topic
15:26 < jo> Oh hey, Mido.
15:26 <@Mido> oh hey jo
15:27 < jo> Happy Cinco de Mido. :V
15:27 <@Mido> foobarbez: your last work place literally drew penises on everything?
15:27 <@Mido> jo: ay dios mio!
15:27 < foobarbez> Mido: well I'm exaggerating a little but there was rarely a birthday card that didn't have at least a couple lovingly-rendered cocks on it because apparently penises are the funniest thing like, ever
15:28 < foobarbez> polycount has a bit of a thing about penises too, maybe it's just game artists that are cock-obsessed teenage assholes
15:28 <@Mido> jesus h christ foobarbez
15:28 < foobarbez> /grumble
15:28 <@Mido> im so sorry
15:29 < sighnoceros> penises are only funny when they're not expected. start putting them everywhere and they're not funny anymore. all things in moderation. especially penises.
15:29 < stickfigs> i think ive only seen one penis on polycount before
15:29 < stickfigs> it was enough to last me a lifetime though
15:30 <@Mido> as a man i have to look at my penis all day every day
15:30 <@Mido> sadly they are not funny
15:30 -!- octan3 [~octan3@D027CAC7.93B5E9A4.EC1FE031.IP] has joined #SAGameDev
15:30 < sighnoceros> just because your penis is depressed doesn't mean everyone's is
15:31 < jo> I disagree. I think they're easy to overuse, but there is some crass humor to be had.
15:31 < jo> As is always the case, humor should be tailored to an audience.
15:31 < foobarbez> the penises went well with the gay jokes I suppose
15:32 < jo> If you're hanging out with your dude friends, penis jokes for everyone!
15:32 <@Mido> not my dude bros >:/
15:32 < foobarbez> oh and the 'when someone gets up from their desk replace the background with softcore gay porn thing'
15:32 < stickfigs> foobarbez oh it was THAT kind of workplace
15:32 < foobarbez> that was hi-larious
15:32 < jo> If you're at work where you're expected to be professional and to make an environment conducive to everyone, not cool.
15:32 < jo> :|
15:33 < jo> Also don't fuck with your coworker's shit. That shit should be law.
15:33 < stickfigs> unfortunately video games culture is mostly shitty
15:33 < jo> :<
15:33 < stickfigs> including a large chunk of players and developers
15:33 < stickfigs> SORRY ITS TRUE
15:34 < jo> Developers, too? :c
15:34 < stickfigs> ive only ever seen positive culture come out of indie dev scene
15:34 < stickfigs> jo most of them not ALL of them
15:34 < foobarbez> yeah the gay porn thing mostly died out when one guy in particular left(to go work at riot)(his boss bought hium a fleshlight as a leaving present)(man I hated those guys)
15:34 < jo> I'm a little surprised at the positive culture in indie scenes, stickfigs.
15:34 < jo> I would have figured the big companies would be less tolerant of sexual harrasment.
15:35 < stickfigs> some big-name dev studios are cool and foster progressive thinking but i can think of like 3 total
15:35 <@xezton> pros: let's act like children to show that we "fit in". Indie: let's act like pros to show that we're responsible
15:35 < stickfigs> jo haha no, big businesses suck
15:35 < jo> But... like at Qualcomm you could _NOT_ get away with any of the shit that foob is talking about.
15:36 < stickfigs> theres a difference between zero tolerance to get out of lawsuits and doing it because its the right thing to do
15:36 < foobarbez> there's a lot of indies, and some are worse than others, but there's also a lot of big studios with shitty hierarchal bullshit that lets people get away with stupid shit like that
15:36 < jo> Interesting.
15:37 < stickfigs> foobarbez emptyquote
15:37 < foobarbez> I hear EA bioware is pretty great for being progressive and non-dudebro-friendly
15:37 < stickfigs> thats exactly how it happens in big biz
15:37 < stickfigs> yeah bioware is okay but i dont like a lot of the decisions theyve made
15:37 < jo> I wonder how Epic is.
15:37 < stickfigs> especially with the female shephard character in mass effect
15:38 < stickfigs> they usually end up doing the right thing too little, too late, and as a direct response to backlash
15:38 < foobarbez> yeah? I thought femshep was pretty universally praised
15:38 < foobarbez> ah, right
15:38 < stickfigs> well, first of all the term
15:38 < stickfigs> "femshep" is problematic
15:38 < foobarbez> true
15:38 < jo> I agree with that.
15:38 < stickfigs> it suggests that female shephard isn't the default
15:39 < stickfigs> then they went and released ALL THE FUCKING advertisement material with JUST man shephard
15:39 < foobarbez> yeah, that sucked
15:39 < stickfigs> and as a result of backlash released a revised trailer with female shephard but ONLY ON THEIR WEBSITE
15:39 < stickfigs> like anyone would even see that
15:39 < crnobog> Did they fix that approach by ME3?
15:39 < foobarbez> it seems like they're trying to be more gender-neutral with the dragon age inquisition marketing
15:39 < crnobog> I vaguely remember the website-only trailer thing being ME2
15:39 < stickfigs> crnobog no, that WAS for me3
15:39 < foobarbez> crnobog: that was ME3
15:39 < crnobog> Oh :(
15:39 < stickfigs> unfortunately
15:40 < jo> Not to defend the course of action, but I suspect that this was done out of ignorance or for financial reasons rathern than an actual patriarchial viewpoint.
15:40 < foobarbez> mostly it is
15:40 < jo> Maybe doing something out of ignorance is the same...
15:40 < stickfigs> jo its counter-intuitive to business though
15:40 < stickfigs> they're losing 50% of potential audience
15:40 < foobarbez> but ignorance and financial reasons often prop up the shitty status quo
15:41 < stickfigs> thats the most amazing part
15:41 < sighnoceros> well the other part of it is how do you develop a recognizable mascot for a video game franchise where the player can create their own character
15:41 < jo> stickfigs: The question is what is the proportion of their audience that plays their games which are male.
15:41 < stickfigs> they could have easily split advertisement material 50/50 between male and female shephard
15:41 < jo> If 50% of gamers are male, then yeah, they cut off half their audience.
15:41 < stickfigs> jo but this demographic trend is self-perpetuated
15:41 < jo> But if 90% of their gamers are male, then...
15:41 < jo> There's also a question, "Do we show both sides, or do we keep our advertising consistent?"
15:41 < stickfigs> if they continue to target males only males will be the majority
15:41 < foobarbez> give shepard unique recognisable armour, change the face up on every spot, go
15:42 < jo> Somewhere a marketeer is debating whether or not it will be confusing to change up the protagonist in their ads.
15:42 <&poem> do like halo and put them behind a mask
15:42 < jo> That's true.
15:42 < jo> And better.
15:42 < stickfigs> actually i was really impressed with Naughty Dog's progressive practices
15:42 <&poem> plus players emprint themselves on characters.
15:42 < stickfigs> they refused to let the game box ship without the female protagonist front and center
15:42 <&poem> i don't think the thought of making shepard only male in the game is a bad one.
15:43 <&poem> in the game itself, choosing male/female doesn't change anything about the game
15:43 <&poem> and that's awesome
15:43 < foobarbez> play up the 'you create the character' aspect imo, advertise with shepards that more people might identify with. lady shepards, black shepards, blonde shepards
15:43 < stickfigs> but why take away the choice
15:43 <&poem> making a custom shepard isn't core to the game though?
15:43 < stickfigs> its the same as customizing armor color in a way, it doesnt affect the gameplay but why take away the opportunity for the player to become invested in their charfacter
15:43 <&poem> same for skyrim
15:44 < sighnoceros> is it worse to make a game with a male protagonist only, or to make a game that lets you choose your gender but marketing using only material that refers to a male
15:44 <&poem> why does skyrim box have ONLY make viking dude
15:44 < jo> I agree that playing up the 'create your own' is slightly misleading if it's not a central point.
15:44 < stickfigs> being able to use MY shephard across all 3 games was a major selling point to me
15:45 <&poem> sighnoceros if you show a set of commercials all with different looking shepards, no one will understand who they are potentially playing in the game.
15:45 < jo> I mean, mention it, absolutely, or show trailers with a bunch of different configurations.
15:45 < stickfigs> i dont know about everyone else
15:45 -!- Zizi [~Zizi@synIRC-E5B8A261.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #SAGameDev
15:45 < sighnoceros> I am all for equality and feminism, but I feel like we do get up in arms sometimes about stuff that isn't really as bad or as malicious as people sometimse make it out to be
15:45 <&poem> ^
15:45 < Zizi> o/
15:45 < foobarbez> it's a roleplaying game where you decide what your character does and how much of a renegade/paragon/whatever they are, how is that not creating your own character
15:45 <&poem> none of that has to do with sex
15:45 < sighnoceros> hey zizi welcome
15:45 < foobarbez> then why is it always a dude
15:45 <&poem> also, i don't know if the commercials showed that either.
15:45 <&poem> it's not always a dude
15:45 -!- emilknievel [~emilkniev@synIRC-C3F1E614.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #SAGameDev
15:46 <&poem> maybe in that game
15:46 < stickfigs> it is always a dude in mass effect ads
15:46 < stickfigs> that was the issue
15:46 < foobarbez> the marketing is always a dude except for that one online trailer
15:46 <&poem> ah
15:46 <&poem> i dunno, you'll have to ask them i suppose
15:46 < stickfigs> they only used the female character as a result of backlash
15:46 < Zizi> Oh, Mass effect? Yeah, they kind of dropped a ball on ME.
15:46 < stickfigs> and only on a site-exclusive trailer
15:46 <&poem> i'm sure there's some marketing bullshit behind it
15:46 < jo> That's what I think, too.
15:47 < stickfigs> all the marketing reasons are bullshit, its never a good idea to limit your target audience
15:47 < jo> I don't think it reflects on some dated understanding or inherent mysogeny in the development team.
15:47 < stickfigs> its just so ingrained in the industry that they just do it for no reason
15:47 < foobarbez> I might have thought that four years ago jo
15:47 < sighnoceros> I get the sense that trying to make a recognizable familiar character was probably more important to them for marketing
15:47 < jo> That's what I think.
15:47 < Zizi> There is, poem: As a white male, I have many charts and graphs showing white males play this game and don't want to not be a white male (I do not actually have charts and graphs).
15:48 <@xezton> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/69648/checkpriv.gif
15:48 < foobarbez> ooh that's a good gif, I am stealing that
15:48 < sighnoceros> I think it would have been great if they used a female character as their shep for marketing
15:48 <@xezton> :D
15:48 < jo> sighnoceros: It would have been nice to implement the complete mix of Shepherd configurations.
15:48 < stickfigs> a better solution would be to just use both defaults
15:48 < jo> In ads, that is.
15:48 < sighnoceros> but I feel like they probably didn't want to switch back and forth for perfectly valid marketing reasons that DIDN'T equate to "we don't want to show a female character"
15:48 < stickfigs> or make the trailer without showing shephard
15:48 < jo> Exactly.
15:49 < jo> Their decisions were financial instead of social.
15:49 < Zizi> sighnoceros: It would have, because after the first game, the real data was showing FemShep was the overwhelmingly popular choice in actual play.
15:49 < jo> Oooh. Data. Me gusta.
15:49 < foobarbez> it's not like stubbles mcwhiteguy is an especially recognisable or interesting character
15:49 < stickfigs> welp theres your financial data
15:49 < Zizi> Mostly because Jennifer Hale did a WAY better job.
15:49 < sighnoceros> sure Zizi, but people were talking about possibly switching between them from ad to ad for a single game
15:49 < stickfigs> shephard is better represented by his N7 armor anyways
15:49 < stickfigs> not the face
15:50 < stickfigs> his/her
15:50 < foobarbez> stickfigs: exactly
15:50 < sighnoceros> full disclosure I never played any of the ME games
15:50 < jo> If female Shepherd was more popular in actual play, that suggests either (1) they don't want to backtrack, (2) they didn't investigate enough, (3) they're spiteful.
15:50 < sighnoceros> I just know the stubbly bald male face
15:50 <&poem> i don't think switching faces ad to ad is the answer. that's confusing.
15:50 < sighnoceros> and I remember people being upset because they were voting on FemShep
15:50 < foobarbez> the male shepard they used in the marketing is the blandest most generic asshole it is possible to invent
15:50 < sighnoceros> and deciding if she should look like a barbie or a country singer
15:51 < jo> I always want to assume people are lazy over stupid and stupid over malicious.
15:51 -!- FlavorText [Mibbit@the.moon] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
15:51 < stickfigs> well why then would they print only male shephard ads but bother to print a reversible game case cover with female shephard ont he back
15:51 < Zizi> sighnoceros: the only reason it would have been a problem to switch is because someone greenlit all the MaleShep stuff without bothering to do actual work first.
15:51 < stickfigs> they clearly knew
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15:51 < sighnoceros> yeah and not to be like "oh it's too expensive" but creating a bunch of extra ad material isn't free
15:52 < sighnoceros> so my argument is basically "they should pick one or the other"
15:52 < foobarbez> they were listening to the ancient marketing myth of 'games with women in don't sell'
15:52 < sighnoceros> and from there, I think picking a female would be great, and if the data supports it then all the better
15:52 < Coldrice_> My next game will star a strong female lead
15:52 < jo> Yeah, the data is in favor of the female Shepherd. They fucked up.
15:52 < stickfigs> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121064-Naughty-Dog-Flat-Out-Refused-to-Change-Last-of-Us-Cover
15:52 < Zizi> sighnoceros: the point is all that had to be created for each game anyway. It's not that hard to be sitting down to get going on ME2 or 3 and say "It'll be FemShep this time" before the materials are made.
15:53 < sighnoceros> but I have always been a gamer who has no problems playing female characters so I may be different than your average dudebro playing the game
15:53 < stickfigs> so according to this article the mindset is that if they used female shephard in ads then men wouldnt buy it
15:53 < stickfigs> which is supported by zero research
15:53 < Zizi> They just didn't bother/think to.
15:53 < jo> I still don't want to give them too much shit because I'm glad they included a female protagonist in the first place. They made the wrong decision based on misevidence by not user her as the focus for advertising.
15:54 < stickfigs> sounds like its just old white men being old white men and refusing to break tradition
15:54 < sighnoceros> yeah that's another part of my argument, they at least allowed for the ability to play a female
15:54 < sighnoceros> but because they messed that up, do we get more mad at them or less than if their game had no female protagonist at all
15:54 < Zizi> stickfigs: pretty much. Though in Bioware/EA's case I'm told it's more a problem of not thinking to break tradition than explicitly not wanting to.
15:55 < jo> Yes!
15:55 < Coldrice_> So I kinda really want to do procedural levels for Interstellaria
15:55 < Zizi> sighnoceros: I don't think it's about getting mad as much as just elevating visibility.
15:55 < Coldrice_> Maybe have both?
15:55 < jo> Both.
15:55 < stickfigs> well "not thinking" is a great way to advertise your game
15:55 < jo> You have a bunch already made, don't you?
15:56 < sighnoceros> you can say that zizi but people totally got mad
15:56 < sighnoceros> but I guess we're gamers, we get mad about pretty much anything
15:56 < Coldrice_> Nah
15:56 < Coldrice_> Like 2
15:56 < stickfigs> <-- not a gamer
15:56 < stickfigs> not subscribing to that subculture lol
15:56 < sighnoceros> you play games though right
15:57 < foobarbez> hi5 not-a-gamer buddy
15:57 < Coldrice_> The rest are just tilesets and mechanics
15:57 < stickfigs> *five*
15:57 < sighnoceros> I'm not saying you have to have an xbox decal on your car
15:57 < Zizi> sighnoceros: Well, I was just speaking for myself and people of a similar mind, really.
15:57 < stickfigs> im an independant thinker who plays video games
15:58 < stickfigs> im not going to define my personality by my hobbies
15:58 < jo> ^^ Hipster. :V
15:58 < jo> j/k
15:58 < sighnoceros> I apologize for trying to put you in a box
15:58 < sighnoceros> buuuut you're a gamer
15:58 < sighnoceros> not all gamers are the same
15:58 <@Mido> sighnoceros: am i a... a... gamer?
15:59 < stickfigs> im a gamer get me out of here
15:59 < jo> I am, too. :c
15:59 < sighnoceros> you can be a gamer and still be a unique and beautiful person
15:59 < jo> I played L4D last weekend.
15:59 < stickfigs> i can also not be a gamer and play games
15:59 < foobarbez> there's a difference between being a person who plays games and someone who identifies with 'gamer culture' imo
15:59 < stickfigs> a little riddle for you
15:59 < HottiePippen_> fact: gaming culture as a whole is overwhelmingly unfriendly to women and there are many many many many example of women giving well thought out viewpoints on why they feel unwelcome that maybe everyone should listen to instead of ignoring
15:59 < jo> I consider myself a gamer and I play ~4 hours of games a month.
16:00 < HottiePippen_> I hate how everybody's first response when somebody suggests something was sexist is to try to explain it away as harmless
16:00 < foobarbez> I don't want to have anything to do with gamer culture because gamer culture generally has no time for me and people like me so fuck that
16:00 < jo> I dislike how the first assertion is that it's deliberately malicious.
16:00 < stickfigs> gamer culture is toxic pmuch
16:00 < sighnoceros> ok but I don't associate myself with gamer culture either
16:00 < sighnoceros> what do you even mean gamer culture
16:00 < sighnoceros> like hanging out on the kotaku forums or something
16:00 < sighnoceros> does kotaku have forums
16:00 <@Mido> sighnoceros: i really do think of gamers as people who choose to make games a big part of their identity
16:01 -!- Kinsie [~New@synIRC-B04D17CB.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:01 < jo> It's possible to say that, "Something wasn't deliberate. It it problematic."
16:01 < sighnoceros> but I play games and enjoy games a lot as one of my hobbies, so I consider myself a gamer, or one who games
16:01 < Zizi> jo: but at the same time, not being deliberately malicious is not the same thing as being harmless.
16:01 < stickfigs> yeah but if you call yourself a gamer youre lumping yourself into the gamer opinion pool
16:01 < jo> I agree.
16:01 < jo> Zizi: I completely agree.
16:01 < stickfigs> like "oh gamers always complain a lot"
16:01 -!- MrPodunkian [MrPodunkia@synIRC-807FBABB.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #SAGameDev
16:01 < jo> It's in what I said.
16:01 < foobarbez> I play games and I make games and I consider myself a game-player and a game-maker
16:02 < jo> "It _is_ problematic."
16:02 < stickfigs> i have never and will never sign a petition about a video game ending
16:02 < stickfigs> but "gamers" would
16:02 < stickfigs> or "gamers" would subscribe to the notion that women cant play or make games
16:02 <@Mido> sighnoceros: idk dont force labels down peoples throats
16:03 < jo> I'm just a little irritated that people are pushing such hate at ME/ME/whatever that they overlook the positive things that it's doing in the way of gender equality.
16:03 < sighnoceros> ok so you're saying you don't want to associate yourself with the vocal minority of people who give the "gamer" stereotype a bad name
16:03 < jo> Yeah, they fucked up with marketing, but they've got a slew of strong female characters which I think is commendable.
16:03 < stickfigs> exactly
16:03 <@Mido> in the same vein that "GAMER" culture shouldn't gatekeep who is and isn't a gamer, folks should be able to say what they do and don't identify as (emphasizing "dont" here)
16:03 < jo> Is it shitty that they didn't include the female version in marketing, yes.
16:03 < stickfigs> and i dont want to be painted according to ONE of my hobbies
16:03 < jo> Is it indicative of a deeper problem in the hardcore gaming culture? Yes.
16:03 < sighnoceros> now I don't have any data but I would imagine the majority of people don't actually fit those stereotypes
16:04 < foobarbez> that's usually the way of things, people get more angry about imperfect attempts at 'better' than obviously regressive shit
16:04 < stickfigs> sighnoceros that applies to any label though
16:04 < sighnoceros> well that's what I'm saying
16:04 < sighnoceros> we're having a discussion about gaming
16:04 < sighnoceros> and how it relates to the gaming community
16:04 < stickfigs> im not really, what im saying applies to any label
16:04 < stickfigs> or subculture
16:04 < foobarbez> sighnoceros: have you heard of 'not-all-man' :v
16:04 < jo> That is _exactly_ why I consider myself a gamer. You can solve an issue more effectively by saying, "I am a member of this group and this is a problem," rather than standing on the outside and saying, "This group has a problem."
16:05 -!- Coldrice_ [~Coldricer@5C230E72.BE65DEE7.215F8AF9.IP] has quit [Client exited]
16:05 < foobarbez> not sure that's true
16:05 < sighnoceros> no foob I haven't, so if that was a joke I don't get it
16:05 < stickfigs> not with human culture anyways
16:05 < stickfigs> the vocal minority will always describe a group
16:05 < sighnoceros> I'm not trying to say you can't call yourself whatever you want or don't want
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16:06 < jo> Unfortunately, yes. The vocal minority describe a group. If you want to change them, you need to speak up from inside and say, "Hey, I'm one of you and the things you're doing are bad and you should feel bad."
16:06 < jo> If you try to do that from the outside, you get written off.
16:06 < sighnoceros> I'm just trying to defend MY usage of "gamer" to describe someone who DOES play games and apparently enjoys them enough to be in an IRC channel with others to discuss them
16:06 < Zizi> jo: Yeah, just saying that I don't think calling something out as being sexist/whatever is the same thing as saying it's deliberate. though if you weren't directly responding to HottiePippen_'s observation, that's my mistake.
16:06 < jo> That's my definition, too.
16:06 < Zizi> ANYWAY.
16:06 <@Mido> jo: and/or you start a group with a better description and as people agree with you and jump ship, the old group is left to be a bunch of frustrated grognard who are isolated
16:06 < stickfigs> basicallt what im trying to say is the stereotype of "gamer" doesnt fit any person and as such theres no reason to call myself one. it only serves to describe my character incorrectly to others
16:07 <@Mido> it's easier to whitelist/polarize a new identity that people choose to adopt than to reform an old one
16:07 < jo> Zizi: Ooooh. I misunderstood. I assumed that calling someone out as sexist implied the assertion that it was deliberate and malicious.
16:07 < foobarbez> sighnoceros: okay it's an internet feminism joke about how dudes love to jump in on criticism of men's behaviours with 'well not ALL men are like this and you saying these things makes me feel bad and I'm going to harass you about how you're making me feel bad with your complaints about how men make you feel bad' etc ad nauseum
16:07 -!- pubjay [~jay@46C057E3.243EA90E.23A9CF51.IP] has joined #SAGameDev
16:07 <@xezton> can't we all just get along :(
16:08 < jo> Mido: That's another possibility.
16:08 < sighnoceros> oh ok no I'm familiar with that phenomenon
16:08 < HottiePippen_> the point is that whether it's deliberate doesn't really matter. The first response seems to always be to attack the person suggesting something is sexist (well they didn't do it on purpose!) rather than trying to figure out they thought it felt that way.
16:08 < Zizi> jo: No, I think it was just implying "You realize that's kinda sexist/racist/douchey, right?" getblown off as "Oh, relax, it's harmless".
16:08 <@Mido> jo: it's what i've seen, generally
16:08 < jo> Zizi: That's shitty.
16:08 < jo> I agree. Don't blow it off.
16:08 < foobarbez> jo: and it happens aaaaalllll the tiiiiime
16:08 <@Mido> there are no real rules on what will or wont work with adjusting groups and their identities
16:09 < Zizi> jo: Yeah, well, mainstream gamer culture has been lately. At least the most vocal segments.
16:09 < sighnoceros> I wasn't trying to make that argument, more the argument that I think not wanting to associate with a group based on the feelings of the vocal minority of the group despite fitting into that label in a LITERAL sense seems silly to me
16:09 -!- JonTerp [~Adium@synIRC-B8B31273.c3-0.eas-ubr3.atw-eas.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #SAGameDev
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16:09 < Zizi> I mean, look at what people did to the Depression Quest lady. Fucking assholes.
16:10 <@JonTerp> Yeah it horrible
16:10 <@JonTerp> also HELLO IRC
16:10 < jo> It's curious that saying, "It's harmless," is a default recourse.
16:10 < Scaevolus> what did they do to depression quest
16:10 < jo> Hi JonTerp.
16:10 <@JonTerp> They harassed the author
16:10 <@JonTerp> with death threats and shit
16:10 <@JonTerp> like a lot
16:10 < foobarbez> sighnoceros: that was my initial response when I first read about womanism buuuut I can understand why you wouldn't want to associate with a group whose vocal minority hates your presence and doesn't get shouted down enough by the silent majority
16:10 <@Mido> sighnoceros: it's not that silly though, imo
16:11 <@Mido> you are saying it's silly but it's really not
16:11 < sighnoceros> as I said, people can choose their labels however they want. but just know that if someone says "oh you play games? I'm a gamer too" and you say "I'm not a gamer, I just play games." it sorta feels like you're turning your nose up at them.
16:11 < sighnoceros> because those labels mean different things to different people
16:11 < Zizi> Scaevolus: she got a deluge of "just kill yourself" and "this isn't a game, plz die" and shit. Then they found out she's a woman and it got way, way worse.
16:11 <@Mido> it's a perfectly legitimate reason to not want to identify, and to prefer other avenues of expression/definition
16:11 < sighnoceros> I'm not saying you have to consider MY feelings when choosing YOUR labels
16:11 < Scaevolus> Zizi: I'm not familiar with what the game is
16:11 <@Mido> sighnoceros: yeah and that label means something to foobarbez ?? :(
16:12 < foobarbez> sighnoceros: but that's exactly what "it sorta feels like you're turning your nose up at them" is, it's YOUR feelings
16:12 < Zizi> Scaevolus: She duffered some really bad depression and made a game about what it's like.
16:12 < Scaevolus> ah, IF
16:12 < Scaevolus> why are people getting mad about IF
16:12 <@Mido> hey sighnoceros: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/69648/checkpriv.gif
16:12 <&turdbot> Mido: xezton linked that 24 minutes ago.
16:12 < sighnoceros> I know, and I was _telling_ you how I felt, not saying you shouldn't do something because of how I felt
16:12 <@Mido> checkmate !!!!!
16:12 <@Mido> (just kidding)
16:12 <@Mido> ( <3 u sigh )
16:13 < stickfigs> if someone doesnt want to be lumped in to some subculture then i dont see why you can't just accept that
16:13 < sighnoceros> again I'm not trying to say you shouldn't be able to choose your labels
16:13 < jo> I guess that makes sense.
16:13 < sighnoceros> stickfigs I'm just trying to have a discussion about it
16:13 < Scaevolus> Zizi: was it posted to gaming sites with people that weren't familiar with IF
16:13 <@Mido> sighnoceros: it's an interesting discussion
16:13 < Scaevolus> IF tends to be more 'choose your own adventure' than 'halo'
16:13 <@Mido> sighnoceros: you kinda touched on the core of it, ie: "it means different things to different people"
16:13 < sighnoceros> and I was asking questions earlier to understand your position and your objections to the label
16:13 < stickfigs> conversely i do have a problem with people who intentionally adhere to labels though
16:14 < stickfigs> well, most labels
16:14 < foobarbez> sighnoceros: right but being all 'you should know that rejecting my label hurts my feelings' is sorta a silly response to 'I am rejecting this label because many people who choose it are utter assholes to me and people like me'
16:14 -!- Fangz [~Fang@synIRC-6BFB1B62.sgyl.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 182 seconds]
16:14 <@Mido> ultimately this discussion sorta ends up on privilege again, doesn't it? :( as cheesey as it sounds
16:15 < foobarbez> everything boils down to privilege in the end :v
16:15 <@Mido> a cisgendered white dude isn't gonna be very affected by the seemingly frustrating vocal minority
16:15 < stickfigs> thats how it works in society so why not
16:15 < Zizi> Scaevolus: there is notthing about sites choosing to talk about an IF maybe-game that makes it any less inhuman to react in that fashion, though.
16:15 < jo> When the question comes up, I usually end up saying, "I don't like the things that the label entails, but I fit the most basic characterization of the label."
16:15 <@Mido> so they will have less of a negative impression of the label "gamer"
16:15 < foobarbez> the sum of all human suffering is unacknowledged privilege
16:15 <@Mido> than someone who is female/trans
16:15 < jo> The sum of all human suffering is cognitive dissonance.
16:15 <@Mido> where that vocal minority is actually ever present and god forbid they find out you aren't a cisgendered white dude
16:15 < stickfigs> i am a cisgendered white dude and i am disgusted by gamer culture
16:15 < sighnoceros> foob if that's how you view the gaming subculture then that's understandable, I'm just saying that's not how a lot of people define "gamer". I certainly don't, because as I said I have no problem with being labelled a "gamer" but I don't hate people and I try very hard not to treat them like shit.
16:16 <@Mido> stickfigs: yeah i'm speaking very generally
16:16 <@Mido> the people in this channel are not really who im talking about
16:16 < sighnoceros> I understand that there are people in the subculture that are like that
16:16 < stickfigs> Mido I see
16:16 < stickfigs> Mido you mean people who dont see a problem with the subculture
16:16 < foobarbez> and that's cool of you sighnoceros but you can see why I am hesitant to associate myself with that label, personally, right
16:16 <@Mido> people who aren't targets of the negative aspects of the subculture
16:16 <@Mido> stickfigs: ^^^^
16:17 < sighnoceros> no certainly, look on a personal level like I said I have no problem at all with that
16:17 < stickfigs> Mido ok
16:17 < Scaevolus> Zizi: people get really mad at games that aren't their sorts, trying to understand context
16:17 < sighnoceros> if you find the label repugnant then by all means
16:17 < Zizi> Scaevolus: Yeah, sorry, I think I misread your question.
16:17 < foobarbez> I'm not hating on anyone who calls themselves a gamer, I just don't want to be associated with it myself
16:17 < Scaevolus> Zizi: not saying it's okay, just trying to understand which goup of idiots was getting mad at game that involves reading
16:17 < stickfigs> i'll hate on them lol
16:18 < sighnoceros> I was just saying, discussions like these TEND to end up with the whole "check your privilege" thing. and when I said, I believe, "we're gamers, we get mad about stuff"
16:18 < Zizi> Scaevolus: It was posted all over. But it was also pretty clearly marked. The real blowup was when it went on Greenlight, though.
16:18 < stickfigs> not hate, but make fun of
16:18 < Zizi> Scaevolus: But really I brought it up just as an example of how incredibly toxic the environment can be.
16:19 < sighnoceros> 1) it was in jest so it's kind of silly that it got this far, and 2) I didn't mean to associate you with behavior you may or may not find repugnant
16:19 < Zizi> Scaevolus: I could have pointed out Assassin's Creed, of all things.
16:19 < Scaevolus> ?
16:20 < Scaevolus> Zizi: overall gamer culture feels incredibly puerile
16:20 < Zizi> Scaevolus: Jade raymond got some horrible shit because AC1 was a game she had a large role in making.
16:20 < stickfigs> if you think the "gamer" label isnt problematic: http://indiestatik.com/2014/03/31/most-expensive-game-jam/
16:20 < Scaevolus> stickfigs: ugh that was terrible
16:20 < stickfigs> it perpetuates the kind of mindset that makes people think its okay to be sexist in a "gamer" context
16:20 < Scaevolus> Zizi: this is one of the reasons why I would never work at a games company
16:20 < sighnoceros> I don't even remember where I was going with this or how it started. anyway. for whoever I said was a gamer and was offended by that labeling I apologize.
16:20 < Zizi> There's a stupid porny 'comic' that is really illustrative, but I don't even want to hunt it down and share it.
16:21 -!- xezton [xezton@EB7E98CA.851CE648.700FE025.IP] has quit [Quit: Broken Alaskan Pipeline]
16:21 < Scaevolus> stickfigs: good old marketing -- "let's pander entirely to our primary demographic"
16:21 < sighnoceros> I felt kind of ruffled when you said you found the label offensive because in my mind I don't have a problem with labelling myself gamer and that made it seem like you found me offensive, and that's not your problem it's mine.
16:21 < Scaevolus> (teenage boys)
16:21 <@Mido> alright everybody hug
16:21 <@Mido> except people who dont want hugs that's cool too
16:22 < stickfigs> sighnoceros it was me but i wasnt insulted, i just disagreed with your reasoning for apply to a label
16:22 * Zizi noogies Mido.
16:22 < stickfigs> or rather confounded by the fact that anyone would WANT to be labeled
16:23 < sighnoceros> well really it kind of reminds me of the whole "feminist" label debate, like people who believe in female equality don't want to be labelled a feminist
16:23 -!- Coldrice [Coldrice@synIRC-5AF7E6FE.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #SAGameDev
16:23 < sighnoceros> because apparently the label feminist had been corrupted by non-feminists claiming that feminists were all militant feminazis
16:23 < stickfigs> well then you should understand why people prefer to avoid labels
16:23 < Scaevolus> unfortunately you don't get to pick what your label means
16:23 < Zizi> Personally, I don't have a problem with being labeled as long as it's correct. Unfortunately a lot of labels have baggage.
16:23 < Scaevolus> just like you don't get to pick what any word means
16:24 < Roflex> how goes the theme scheme
16:24 < jo> It's fair to not want people to make incorrect assumptions about you.
16:24 < Scaevolus> it's defined by the collective culture. if you want more precise labels, find a subculture that's willing
16:24 < stickfigs> that was exactly my argument; i dont want my personality attached to something that doesnt accurately describe me and susceptible to change or corruption
16:24 < Scaevolus> jo: sorry, stereotypes and prejudice are the default state of humanity
16:24 < sighnoceros> but the problem, for me, is that all of these arguments can be pretty much made for any label. and a label is just meant to be short-hand.
16:25 <@JonTerp> I already miss IJ :(
16:25 < Zizi> that's why I don't Identify as a gamer despite most of the definition fitting me well. GameDev fits me so much better.
16:25 < sighnoceros> so instead of saying "I believe in equal opportunities for everyone regardless of gender" I can say "I'm a feminist"
16:25 < jo> Scaevolus: Not saying it isn't.
16:25 < stickfigs> i dont want to be short-hand either lol
16:25 < foobarbez> imo people pick their labels and assigning someone a label they don't want can be offensive
16:25 <@JonTerp> When I was applying to the job I currently have they asked me if I identify as a "gamer"
16:25 < foobarbez> depends whoether you care about offending them ultimately
16:25 < Scaevolus> as long as your group predictions are correct >50% of the time, you can use that to compress information
16:26 < stickfigs> JonTerp oh god
16:26 <@JonTerp> I said No, but I play a lot of games and care about the industry.
16:26 < Scaevolus> encode information about a person by referencing your stereotype. save brain space
16:26 <@JonTerp> They seemed to react in a way that indicated I had said the correct thing
16:26 < stickfigs> reacting on instinct is uncivilized
16:26 < Zizi> JonTerp: I've been asked that. I said in all honestly, "no, I am a game developer."
16:26 < Scaevolus> gzip(social_memory)
16:26 < sighnoceros> since all the labels have seemingly run away from us into subcultures we should start using Gamer as a member of the subculture and gamer as the noun that describes a person who plays games
16:27 <@JonTerp> Gamer simply meant someone who enjoys video games and the culture
16:27 <@JonTerp> it's been corrupted by shitty marketing
16:27 <@JonTerp> the end
16:27 < foobarbez> lots of black women refuse the label 'feminist' and prefer 'womanist' because they feel the feminist movement is white-dominated and ignores the particular issues that face black women, I'm not going to try and tell them 'no see you ARE feminists because XYZ', I'm just not
16:27 < stickfigs> now it means "doritos"
16:27 < stickfigs> and
16:27 < stickfigs> "men's rights"
16:27 <@JonTerp> What
16:27 <@JonTerp> I was with you up until you said men's rights
16:27 < stickfigs> fedoras
16:27 <@JonTerp> I think you're getting 'gamer' confused with 'reddit user'
16:27 < stickfigs> i cant tell them apart
16:28 < stickfigs> youtube, minecraft, video games, reddit
16:28 < stickfigs> all the same to me
16:28 <@JonTerp> Just like everything else in life, it's not black and whte.
16:28 < sighnoceros> that's likely something I should work on foob, I tend to have semi-strict definitions in my head and I guess if someone fits that to me they shouldn't have a problem with it, but that doesn't mean shit because they're not me
16:28 <@JonTerp> So maybe just drop it? Or start talking about the definition of game and have an equally shitty conversation
16:28 < foobarbez> r/gaming is one of the biggest subreddits to be fair
16:29 < stickfigs> JonTerp drop what?
16:29 <@JonTerp> Boiling things down into labels never works.
16:29 < stickfigs> oh youre talking to signoceros?
16:29 < sighnoceros> I got into an argument once with a person who said they were a proponent of women being allowed choose to have an abortion, but said they were not pro-choice
16:29 <@JonTerp> Both of you
16:29 < foobarbez> sighnoceros: yeah you can assign boxes/labels in your head all you like but you have to bear in mind not everyone's labels mean the same thing
16:30 < stickfigs> JonTerp ok then drop what in my case?
16:30 < Zizi> Honestly... I don't feel the conversation has at any point been that bad, except for being a topic that usually does turn bad.
16:30 <@JonTerp> ^
16:30 < stickfigs> Zizi i agree it's pretty civil
16:30 < Zizi> But then again, I don't like programming language arguments, so...
16:30 <@JonTerp> It's a toxic circular argument
16:31 < Scaevolus> it's a good thing we use languages with well defined semantics
16:31 <@JonTerp> Like saying "X game isn't a game because blah blah blah"
16:31 < foobarbez> and ultimately respecting someone's self-identity is a choice you can make or not, but obvs it's kinda shitty to ignore what they choose to define themselves as
16:32 < stickfigs> JohnTerp Zizi was saying that the conversation hasnt been shitty
16:32 < foobarbez> I don't think this discussion has been toxic at all, it's been reasonable and polite and I think we're all making and hearing good points
16:32 < stickfigs> we've just been having a good discussion
16:32 < jo> Yeah.
16:32 <@JonTerp> How do you misspell my name when it's right there and auto-tabbable.
16:32 < stickfigs> i dont know what that is
16:32 < JamesRossi> Been an interesting read honestly, I don't have anything to add really.
16:32 < sighnoceros> yeah I agree, I do tend to get caught up in arguments that I feel are just about semantics but I suppose it may not seem that way to someone else
16:32 -!- RoboCicero [~RoboCicer@synIRC-D843C76E.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #SAGameDev
16:32 < foobarbez> heh
16:33 -!- Coldricer [~Coldricer@5C230E72.BE65DEE7.215F8AF9.IP] has joined #SAGameDev
16:33 < jo> The purpose of argument isn't to see who is right, but what is right.
16:33 <@JonTerp> Don't have an argument, have a debate.
16:33 < stickfigs> jo i like that
16:33 < jo> :3 Thanks, it's original.
16:33 <@JonTerp> or a discussion
16:33 < Coldricer> Dudes I'm getting really into the idea if how I'd do a procedural platformer/metroidvania level
16:34 < foobarbez> being able to view arguments about identity and the rights/treatment of minorities in groups as 'semantics' is itself a kind of privilege
16:34 < stickfigs> Coldricer Good luck with that, i heard its really hard problem to solve
16:34 < Zizi> Yes, I was trying to tactfully suggest that while it may not be a conversation everyone likes, it hasn't been a pile of argument and shitposting and sometimes we have to let civil discussions we don't like play out because we're (supposed to be) socialized adults. :V
16:34 < stickfigs> Look up some articles regarding how the Spelunky guy did it, sounded complicated
16:34 < MrPodunkian> no way, spelunky's method is super simple
16:35 < JamesRossi> Also really "samey"
16:35 < stickfigs> maybe im misremembering then
16:35 -!- JonTerp [~Adium@synIRC-B8B31273.c3-0.eas-ubr3.atw-eas.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:35 < Zizi> Coldricer: I've got an article around here somewhere.
16:35 < MrPodunkian> you definitely are, the way spelunky's worked is just to build a path, and then to connect parts that fit
16:35 < JamesRossi> I'm sure it is worth reading, but it's not worth carbon copying
16:35 < sighnoceros> uuuuuuuugh foob it sucks but you're right really
16:35 < stickfigs> i thought i read that it was a very hard problem to solve without lots of fine-tuning of algorithms by hand
16:35 < MrPodunkian> and then filling the rest of the rooms with randoms
16:35 < Coldricer> I've done 2 projects with spelunky gen
16:35 < foobarbez> I have had so many arguments online about abortion rights with dudes who go on long philisophical rants about hypotheticals and what-ifs and it pisses me off because they don't even realise that being able to frame the entire thing in the realm of pure hypothesis and whataboutery is something I can't do because it is literally something that could happen to me sometime
16:36 < Coldricer> One with prefabs and one without
16:36 < MrPodunkian> a metroidvania without premade rooms would be miserable and unfun though
16:36 < stickfigs> oh sorry you know what
16:36 < stickfigs> i think i was thinking of Rogue Legacy
16:36 < Coldricer> I would probably use prefabs
16:36 < MrPodunkian> rogue legacy's is even simpler...
16:37 < HottiePippen_> could you do premade rooms w/ randomized enemies, powerups, tilesets?
16:37 < foobarbez> anyway I am really glad we have been able to have this conversation without ending up in the eternal shithole of most internet debates so kudos dudes
16:37 < jo> Coldricer: Maybe randomizing prefabricated world positions?
16:37 < JamesRossi> Coldricer I dunno if he is around but luciddream does a combo of full procedural and premade content that might appeal to you.
16:37 < jo> Or items inside the rooms.
16:37 < stickfigs> do you guys have source code access? lol
16:37 < sighnoceros> I really do try to see the other side as much as possible and consider others' situations in discussions like this but me saying "I'm trying, your hurting my feelings by disregarding me because I have privilege" can basically sound like "You should listen to me because I have privilege"
16:37 < MrPodunkian> with spelunky, the source is actually available
16:37 < MrPodunkian> and with rogue legacy, it's easy to tell how it works just from playing the game
16:37 < Zizi> Not to mention there's alike a million articles about it.
16:37 < sighnoceros> and I try to make sure my arguments are "You should listen to me because of the content of my statement"
16:37 < stickfigs> then what the hell did i read about then
16:37 < stickfigs> ill have to look for it
16:37 < MrPodunkian> beats me
16:38 < MrPodunkian> it's just connecting exits to other exits. with rogue legacy the rooms don't even have to actually fit because each room is completely independent of any other room
16:38 < MrPodunkian> beyond appearing connected on a minimap
16:38 < stickfigs> maybe it was about spelunky and placement of traps and loot to be interesting and non-samey
16:38 < sighnoceros> "I feel that this label means x, you should be fine with me using it because you fit the definition of x, even if you think the label means y"
16:38 < stickfigs> this would probably be the HD spelunky
16:38 < sighnoceros> ugh
16:38 < MrPodunkian> spelunky's method is smart because it uses gravity as a guiding mechanism from getting the player to the exit
16:39 < MrPodunkian> which is why the layouts are (generally) top to bottom
16:39 -!- RoboCicero [~RoboCicer@synIRC-D843C76E.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 188 seconds]
16:39 < Zizi> Personally, my philosophy is "If you're doing something that doesn't affect me in any concrete way and I don't have to see/hear/participate about it, I can't see why I should care enough to tell you if it's okay".
16:40 < stickfigs> foobarbez thank you for taking part of the conversation i know it cant be easy having to argue about problems youve had first-hand experience with to people who dont
16:41 < sighnoceros> yeah anyway thanks guys for putting up with me
16:41 < Coldricer> I'll have to play with it obviously
16:41 <@Mido> we love you sighnoceros
16:41 < stickfigs> the sa gamedev community is definitely one of the best online communities ive seen
16:41 -!- Pixotic [~Pixotic@synIRC-740AE8F7.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 181 seconds]
16:41 <@Mido> very much
16:41 -!- RoboCicero [~RoboCicer@synIRC-D843C76E.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #SAGameDev
16:41 <@Mido> stickfigs: refer to our few rules
16:41 < foobarbez> stickfigs and sighnoceros you dudes have been great, thanks for the convo
16:41 <@Mido> we are here to make games and hi5, and sometimes hug
16:42 < Coldricer> Awkwardly fist bump
16:42 < MrPodunkian> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29308821/Wasted/index.html lots of optimizations offset by shitty post processing and a few bug fixes
16:42 < luciddream> I've been thinking for awhile about making an "arcade" mode for signs of life that uses the existing mobs and items and crap for a roguelike kinda thing sorta like how secrets of grinda does its arcade mode, but I probably wouldn't even start messing around with it until I get multiplayer working well
16:42 < Zizi> Sometimes we have deep and meaningful conversation about industry and social issues. And sometimes we post dickbutts.
16:42 < MrPodunkian> if you had a save, it won't be available at that url, but i can move it over to the other url which should fix it
16:42 < jo> I want to reproduce this conversation in its entirely on my blog.
16:43 < jo> As an addendum to a real writeup. Not just blogspam. :V
16:43 < jo> Any objections?
16:43 < sighnoceros> I'm going to have to do a lot more research on this stuff for the game I want to make
16:43 < stickfigs> i hope you dont because it originated from a penis joke i made
16:43 < stickfigs> lmao
16:43 < foobarbez> I don't mind at all jo, link it when it's online :3
16:43 < jo> I opened the writeup with that..